You are listening to the National University Podcast. 

Kimberly King:

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University Podcast, where we offer a holistic approach to student support, well-being and success- the whole human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners. Today we’re discussing tips on how to get promoted and we’re going to be talking to a guest from the National University Archives and she has promoted quite quickly, but according to LinkedIn, five essential steps to a promotion strategy achievements, reputation, advocates and business case. This is going to be very interesting and she’ll tell us why experience also matters.

On today’s episode, we’re discussing how to get promoted. And joining us is Sarah Massey. Sarah is currently the Associate Vice President of Operations at National University. She oversees important departments related to student support, including career services, accessibility services, disability services, student wellness, and the military benefits department. In her role, Sarah has been responsible for developing, launching, and establishing two new departments. implementing NU’s new job portal called Handshake, leading a university-wide transformation and integrating two institutions into her department to support all students and alumni. Before joining National University, Sarah worked as a third grade elementary school teacher from 2007 to 2011. She then transitioned into higher education as an academic advisor at Northcentral University in May of 2011. and then became the associate director in September. In 2018, Sarah was promoted to the position of director of student and financial services at North Central University. And in this role, she provided support and guidance to associate directors, fostering effective team management, building a strong team culture, and focusing on professional development. Sarah holds a bachelor of science degree from Central Michigan University. and a master’s degree in education specializing in curriculum and instruction from Grand Canyon University. She’s always had a passion for teaching and leadership, believing that true leadership involves nurturing others’ growth and enabling them to reach their full potential in their careers. And we welcome you, Sarah, to the podcast. How are you?

Sarah Massey:

Awesome, doing well. Thank you so much for having me.

Kimberly King:

Yeah, absolutely impressive background and it’ll be great to talk about getting promoted. But why don’t before we get to today’s topic, why don’t you fill our audience in a little bit on your passion and your mission.

Sarah Massey:

Yeah, so like you shared, I started as an elementary school teacher and so I’ve always had a passion for just teaching others, helping others, and I loved kids. So I always started with kids, always had a passion with kids, and then I had kids of my own. And so that kind of led me to had to make a really tough decision of where I needed to spend most of my time and my family was really important. at the time and my commute was really, really long. So I changed directions and I knew when I, when I changed directions, I still want to help people. And I still wanted to be in education in some form or another. And that led me to Northcentral University back in 2011. And so I got to start out as an academic advisor there, helping a little over 250 students, ensuring that they’re making progress in their- in their programs, making sure that they had all the necessary tools to be successful so that I could see them at graduation. So that kind of got my foot off the ground in higher education and I loved it. I loved working with adult learners. 

I had an incredible team that I worked alongside with and really just found that passion of just wanting to grow within the organization and just continue helping others and teaching as best as I can. which led me to the leadership positions that I’ve taken on at Northcentral University, with that first one being the associate director position. And again, that position kind of led me into overseeing a team and helping them really reach their potential. And so what I really, really loved about leadership is getting to work with individuals and understanding what their career goals are and really helping them kind of reach that full potential. And I just kind of been there ever since because it’s just something that just drives me. Seeing my team be successful and move up in their careers is just incredible. It’s an incredible feeling just to be able to be a part of their journey and trust me in helping them lead through the different areas that they were pursuing.

Kimberly King:

Well, it’s nice. You can definitely see and hear your passion and it is so great. You’re in it for the right reasons to kind of uplift others and see their potential. So congratulations, you’re in the right place. And today we’re talking about how you move up that corporate ladder- you surely have. And Sarah, what did you do specifically that got you promoted?

Sarah Massey:

Oh gosh.

You know, I think I went into it, you know, with my different promotions, there was always specific things that I was always working towards. And I think the very first thing is putting really focus around first, who do I wanted to be? And so when people heard my name come up in the organization, what were they saying about me? What did I want them to say about me? And that was the first one. I think relationship building is super important because when you’re working for an organization, you’re working with all different kinds of people, different departments, and really building those relationships because a lot of times we’re collaborating to solve big problems or problem solve different scenarios, situations, to really grow an institution and improve the student experience. And so really fostering those relationships interdepartmentally was a really big focus of mine. And so being able to do that, I also you know, really leaned on my leader. She knew exactly like what my career goals were, what I wanted to do. And I always asked her for feedback. How am I doing? What do you see that I’m doing well in? But like, where am I falling short? Where do I need to put some focus around? And I think that’s really important, especially for anyone looking for promotion, you’ve got to be open to that feedback and really ask others for their feedback regarding… regarding how they feel like you’re doing. And I think that’s important, because I think sometimes people get scared to ask because they’re scared of getting that answer.

Kimberly King:

Right.

Sarah Massey:

You know, you’ve got to be humble. And you’ve got to be ready to hear that feedback so that you can continue growing, because if you don’t ask for the feedback, sometimes you’re just not going to get it. And then you hear it when you’re getting feedback because you didn’t get that promotion. So I think that’s really important. The other one too is, self-development. No one’s gonna develop you except for yourself. And so asking for what can I do? What additional projects can I take on? What additional responsibility can I have to really start to grow in different areas that are outside of the scope of just doing my current job today? And so I would say a lot of that is what I did time and time again to continue to grow, continue to challenge myself. so that I could continue to gain new skills and gain new experiences, because those experiences matter when you’re trying to get promoted and really taking on bigger roles and responsibility.

Kimberly King:

That is some great advice. And I think in the world today, after coming through the pandemic and just seeing, I don’t know, it feels like you’re a self starter, you’re, you know, and just self, really in asking for that feedback and being humble, I think you need, that needs to be told to everybody today. I feel like that’s lacking. So good for you. What are the reasons why someone doesn’t get promoted or why they get overlooked?

Sarah Massey:

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there could be a lot of different reasons, right? So I think when you’re looking to get promoted into a bigger role, experience matters.

Kimberly King:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Massey:

You’ve got to sometimes have that foundational experiences. You had to have stumbled and fall so that you can learn, get back up and be able to apply it again. And so I think when, you know, people that are maybe, you know, for example, for myself, going from an associate director to a director role. That experience as an associate director is really, really important because it teaches you skillsets on how to lead a team, how to do it effectively, how to build a strong culture that empowers your team to be the best that they can. And without that experience, you can’t jump into a director role and now oversee a whole department and going from 10 employees that you’re leading. to responsible for 60 plus employees. And so that experience really does matter. So I would say that first one is lack of experience. I think the other, you know, if I were to think of a couple more, lack of self-awareness,

Kimberly King:

Mm.

Sarah Massey:

I think is a really big one. And so when you’re going for a promotion, you’ve got to be self-aware. You have to be self-aware of your strengths. You’ve got to be self-aware of your growth opportunities. And sometimes you’ve got to humble yourself in time to say in, you know, in meetings or when you’re working on different various projects of sitting there and saying, hey, I don’t know how to do this. Can somebody help me? I want to learn. And sometimes a lot of people shy away from being able to say, I don’t know this. And I think that’s really important. And part of that self-awareness is like being able to humble yourself because I think sometimes people and teams look at leaders and say, you know what, they know everything. They are smart. They got it under control. When really, sometimes we’re at the bottom just trying to get out of a hole, you know?

Kimberly King:

Right.

Sarah Massey:

And so we’re people, too, and we’re human, too.

Sarah Massey:

But, you know, when you’re going for that promotion, you’ve got to you’ve got to be humble and you’ve got to and you’ve got to be able to really take those steps to understand what it is that you still need to work on as part of your development. I would say the third one, like I said earlier, I think relationships are very important, especially when you go to those bigger positions where you’re having to work with many different departments. People wanna work with someone that’s collaborative. People wanna work with somebody that has a voice and if they disagree with you, being able to do that in a professional way, but still in a collaborative way as well, right? And so I think sometimes when you demonstrate that inability to kind of like they say, play nice in the sandbox, it turns people off and makes look at you and say like, you know what, she’s not really collaborative. When we have these big problems to solve, I don’t know what we might get. And so I think that is also something that’s really, that I see, even when I’m hiring. for my departments. If I’ve got a team member that’s just uncollaborative and they’ve got peers that don’t want to work with them because maybe their demeanor, how they approach things, you know, that’s important because when you go for a promotion and you’re in that interview, very rarely are you in an interview with just a hiring manager. You’re in an interview with a panel. And that panel goes across the organization where you’re having multiple different department leaders sitting in interviewing you. So that’s also something to take note on as well, especially when you’re going for that promotion.

Kimberly King:

Those are all great as well. And I love that you say play nice in the sandbox. It is really, it’s about your team, you know, and teamwork makes the dream work. I know all of these are cliche, but it’s so very true. How did you show you were ready for a promotion?

Sarah Massey:

Yeah, so I think going back to, I was very fortunate enough to have one of the best leaders in the business. Jennifer Whalen has been my senior director. She’s been my VP for I’d say almost seven years. And she was one of the leaders I looked up to and I valued her as a leader. She was a tough leader. She was a great leader, but she gave us room to make mistakes. She gave us room to teach us. She gave very direct feedback. Sometimes feedback is hard to hear, but that feedback is the feedback that kept pushing me to really work towards where I really wanted to be. And so… I worked with her very closely. I asked to meet with her on a weekly basis and the opportunities that I had to learn her role because that next step was that director position. That’s when, if she got promoted, that was the position I wanted. And so working really closely with her to say like, what can I learn? What can I take from you? And it was her giving me those additional responsibilities to really show like, hey, I’m really working towards this. And… I still need help in this area, right? So I think just gaining those experiences and being able to take on additional projects that prepared me, I would say is really how I kind of showcased it. And then also, again, going into the interview, I think when you go into interviews, what you hear a lot of is, tell me about a time, right?

Kimberly King:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Massey:

And there’s those situational questions where, the interview panels look and see like what experiences have you had? How did you handle those experiences and what did you learn from that experience? And how do you apply that experience? And so being able to sit in an interview very confident and answer and say, I’ve been through this. This is what it looked like. And here’s how I will apply it in this new role – that says a lot about your readiness for that position.

Kimberly King:

I love that. And I especially in academia, I think that situational experiences and just coming up with scenarios, I think should be taught in classrooms anyway, just like life scenarios. Correct. Right. It’s just, we all go through those. So it’s a life lesson. So good. I love that you’re a go getter. How did you show that you were the right fit for this promotion in your career. So, the

Sarah Massey:

Yeah.

Kimberly King:

Or was that how are you ready? But how did you show that?

Sarah Massey:

That’s a really good question. So I just take you on a little bit of a journey. So my ultimate, my goal, my goal is always to be a director. I didn’t think anything beyond that because I thought that was big enough scope, big enough to take on. Wouldn’t we, you know, I think you are aware National University merged with Northcentral University. And so right now, you know, we just completed that transformation and that merge. And with that transformation, the associate vice president is actually a new role at the institution. And so when that role was kind of written out, I had asked myself, like, what is that type of role even entail? I don’t even know what that even looks like, right? And I took a look at the job description. I said, OK, I’ve done those things before. But my confidence of having like a VP in my title, I don’t know if I was ready for that. And so I went to my leader, Jen, I said, Hey, I said, I saw this rule. What do you think? Do you think I’m ready? Because I always ask my leader, I’ve asked my leader, and every step of my promotion, do you think I’m ready? And if the answer is no, great, what can I what do I need to work on? Right? And I wanted to want to do the yes or no answer. And I got nothing (laughs). I got, did you read the job description? I did. So you tell me, are you ready?

And so, you know, I’m also one where I don’t like kudos. I don’t like people telling me thank you. I’m not that type of person that that’s my job. I shouldn’t begin to thank you for doing my job. Um, and so she’s like, you know what? She’s like, you need to really self reflect on everything you’ve been doing the last three years, um, and you’re going to need to be able to find a way. To start talking about the success that you’ve had, because I know that you struggled to talk about your successes because you just do it and it’s just another thing that you just want more. Um, and so I had to talk to her about why I thought I was ready. She. looked at me at the end and she goes, I think you answered the question yourself. And I was like, okay.

Kimberly King:

Mm. Oh wow.

Sarah Massey:

so it was kind of that moment of like, okay, I do need to really come to this interview. And she said, she’s like, you’re gonna have to show up to the interview and you’re gonna need to tell me why you think you’re the best fit for the role. And in that interview, I went through. two or three panel rounds, tough questions, but I answered them very confidently. I had a lot of experience to share. A lot of the work that was gonna be involved with the new AVB role, I’ve already done. And so I was able to come in and say like, yeah, building two departments at the same exact time, challenge all while going through an institution, but I’ve done it before. I’ve built many different things over the past two years, some of the things not knowing anything about, but it’s not about the, you know, it’s not about technical all the time. It’s about the skills that you need to be able to get the job done. And those were the skills I was able to showcase in that interview.

Kimberly King:

And good for you. I think that’s another piece of really keen advice is that we do need to self-reflect and then be able to talk about those skills. So my daughter just graduated from college and she was just at her interview. She called me right before this interview. But it is that reflecting and saying, okay, it’s not just doing your job, but also how you show up for it. She was an athlete. So all of that ties in together. Why do you say experience matters when working toward a promotion? You did kind of… talk about that, but it’s a key factor.

Sarah Massey:

Yeah, yeah, and I like that you asked that question because a lot of times, a lot of times when candidates are going for a promotion, they think, you know, when they don’t get it, right, or they think that they should get it, it’s because, hey, I do a really good job in my current role. I am the best of the best. I’m executing on all cylinders. I’m going above and beyond. Like, I’m executing at a high level in my role. I should be getting the promotion. That’s not necessarily the answer. That’s not necessarily it. You’re demonstrating that you’re capable in your current role. What you’re not demonstrating is that you can move up and have a bigger role with more responsibilities that require a whole maybe different level of skills. And so that experience, when I talk about experience, that matters. And so you’re doing your job and doing it well. is baseline even be considered by your organization as to whether or not you’re ready for a promotion. The next step is growing them. What experiences, what experience are you gaining? What additional projects are you doing to grow skill sets? 

You should never be just doing your job if you want a promotion. You should be doing your job, doing it at a high level. But you should also be taking additional responsibility, being involved in projects, asking for regular feedback. If you know what role or position you’re applying for, you want next. Engaging with that leader, shadowing that leader, those are all things that you should be doing. And a lot of times, you often hear people say, well I don’t have enough time Well, that’s on you. And so when you go for that promotion, someone is gonna be finding that time and it’s gonna get that promotion over you because you chose not to find that time. You know, there’s times over the last three years, I was working 15 hours a day, 17 hours a day at various points just because of the scope of work I had on my plate, but also the additional projects that I also had taken on that people depended on me to complete and complete at a high level no matter what was on my plate. And so that’s hard work. You’ve got to put in the work. You got to put in the effort. You got to find the time.

Kimberly King:

And that’s great advice as well. And again, that’s really tied into that experience and it’s how bad you want it. So we have to take a quick break. Such great information right now. Don’t go away, we’ll be back in just a moment. Good job. This is awesome.

Sarah Massey:

Yeah. Yep. Totally. Thank you. awesome.

Kimberly King:

Talk about that a little bit. Do you want me to ask you that again or is there somebody else you want to?

Sarah Massey:

Um, yeah, I mean, Jennifer Whelan for sure is like number one. I mean, I’ve been, she’s been my leader for, um, the last seven years. Ian Cooper is now our senior VP. Um, so he was, he also was a integral part and kind of bringing me in and allowing me to do various projects for him. Um, during a, during a time in my, um, background, I was actually an AD moving towards a director. Okay.

Kimberly King:

And now back to our interview with National University’s Sarah Massey. And we’re talking about how you move up the ladder in a company. And Sarah has some great advice. But another question, when working toward a promotion in your career, was there anyone that helped you or that helped you turn to a little bit for advice?

Sarah Massey:

Yeah, so Jennifer Whelan, she was my senior director. Now she is my leader as vice president of operations. Incredible, incredible leader. She helped me get to where I was today in each step of my career. You know, she came to the institution, I think back in 2015. So she’s been my leader since then. And over the course of the year, she’s taught me so much on what it means to build a team, build a department, build a culture. She challenged me, she pushed me to sometimes my limits, but you know, her leadership and her ability to just believe in me and know when to push me, know how to push me to be my best, I will ever… be grateful for her to have in my life. The other one too, Ian Cooper, he came to the organization, I believe in 2014. And so I’ve been working with him and he always believed in me, my capabilities. He helped me, I worked alongside with him on various different projects, as I was kind of growing my leadership career and moving from an AD into a director role that gave me more visibility of working with other leaders within the organization. um running you know working with the dean’s office and running various um projects for the organization um and so I would say in terms of where I am today I can’t thank both Jennifer and Ian from the bottom of my heart because they they’re the ones that really pushed me and got me to where I needed to be with their guidance

Kimberly King:

That’s always nice. Mentors really are amazing people and it’s so great that you feel comfortable enough to ask for the help as well. That’s how it should be. Were you ever turned down a promotion you thought you were ready for?

Sarah Massey:

I was, yeah, a couple of times actually. And so one of them that I will share, like I shared with you, I became an associate director back in 2011, shortly after I came to North Central University. And in 2013, a director position had opened up. And as the associate director, there was a lot of opportunities to improve the department. And so not only was I running my team, but I was also… building new processes, streamlining processes, you know, where there was kind of cracks in our engagement strategy, finding solutions and how we can better support students. And so doing a lot of things to really help our students, but also being really innovative, right? So as my contact strategy grew for my academic advisors, they need to be able to manage their contacts. 

And so really building… what we used to call the attacker day. And it had all of their engagements for the week that they had to make and all the reports were pulled for them. And so really being creative to really support not only the team, but to support our students. And so really kind of execute on all cylinders there to get the department and my team to where they needed to be in terms of supporting and servicing our students with excellence. Also got regular feedback from my senior director at that time. you know, that I was doing a really great job. And so when the director opened up, I said, you know what, I’m ready. I am ready to take that next step. And it came down to between myself and another associate director that had recently come on board. And ultimately, that other individual was selected for the director position. Wasn’t mad, but again, what it came down to was experience. 

That other, the other candidate that was selected, was a director before. He had prior experience running a department, and we were also going through an accreditation change. And so he was very familiar with WASC accreditation at the time that we were working with. And so it made sense for him to kind of step into that role, which I understood, but again, bumped at the same time. And then again, there was another position, again, that director had moved on, and that director position got turned into a senior director position over academic advising and financial aid advising. And so again, um, kind of that scope was a little bit bigger, um, in terms of that, but I had gained a lot of experiences running the team, um, working with my peers, collaborating with my peers, um, to really not only focus solely on my team, but focus on the department as a whole and how my decisions may impact that department. And so again, applied for the experience. Because if I didn’t get it, I understood. Because I didn’t have a financial aid background at that time, but I’m very quick to learn. I can learn on the fly. I learned very quickly and can adapt pretty quickly. But again, that was another position back in 2015 that I didn’t get and I was okay with that. When Jennifer came in, she… came in from another institution, but that was my first time I got to meet her. And boy did I learn so much. There was so much that she brought to our department, our organization, that I got to sit back and be a part of it with her. 

And I think that was the best kind of learning experience for me, right? Like, I want to be the best leader that I can be, and here I have this new leader that just walked in my life. And it has shown me exactly what that means to bring along your team in the process when you’re making big changes. And you’re building a department, and you’re implementing new things. It’s very easy for a leader or manager to just come and do it and tell you that this is how it’s going to be done. It’s another thing when you get to be involved in that process. And a lot of learning took place. And it really taught me, again, who I wanted to be as a leader. I wanted to be that person, they got to do those things and bring whoever I was leading at the time into all of the decision makings, the processes, the collaboration, and making sure their voice was always heard as I continued on my path of leadership.

Kimberly King:

I think that was perfect timing, right? I think you were in the right place at the right time for that, especially to have that mentor that you keep speaking about, which is great. How do you integrate self-development that you talked about a little bit earlier into preparing yourself for a promotion?

Sarah Massey:

Yeah, I think any type of self-development when you’re preparing for a promotion is understanding what it is you wanna do. What is your next career move? And then really seeking out like, what are those roles and responsibilities entail in that position? So, you know, looking at the job description, talking to the people that are already doing that job and getting their perspective in terms of role responsibilities, skills needed, what their day to day looks like, and then going after that. Finding opportunities to get involved, finding opportunities to again take on some of that work. Seeking regular feedback I think is really important, like I said before. Always looking to get feedback as you grow to see again, you know, what others are seeing in your work. What are others seeing in yourself? And maybe what’s something additional that you need to work on? And so I think in terms of that self-development, it’s taking the initiative. It really is. And it’s going back to no one’s gonna develop you except for yourself. You’ve gotta ask for it, you’ve gotta want it, and you’ve gotta take on those things and find the time to do it.

Kimberly King:

The self-starter and that self-development is right. What is the best advice you can give to a professional who wants to get promoted?

Sarah Massey:

Yeah, um… I like this saying because when I look back at my career, God, there’s a lot of times I was uncomfortable. 

Kimberly King:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Massey:

There was a lot of times where I was stressed. There’s a lot of times where some of the work gave me anxiety because it’s new work. It’s challenging work and your brain is not used to some of the different ways of thinking that you have to put in to do some of the things that you are given. And so, any advice that says be ready, get ready to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

Because when you’re comfortable, you’re not learning, you’re not challenging yourself. When you are uncomfortable and you’re in that uncomfortable phase, it’s because it’s something new. It’s because it’s something you’re not used to. It’s because you’re growing.

Kimberly King:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Massey:

You’re doing things that are pushing you to be better, to learn something new. to gain new skill sets. And that’s not easy. That’s hard. But you’ve got to find the perseverance to take on this initiative. So I’m gonna give you an example right now. I don’t like public speaking. This podcast came up and I was very nervous. I was like, oh, I don’t really do good public speaking. A lot of nerves, right? Because I don’t do it often. But… Again, this is going outside of my comfort zone, right? Because I eventually need to be a strong public speaker as I grow in this organization and have a voice for four departments. That’s really important. 

And so, you know, doing podcasts, love them. I don’t feel like I’m the best at them because I don’t do them often, right? And so it makes me a little uncomfortable. And so I think that would be the best advice. Don’t say no because you’re… not comfortable, because you’re nervous, because you’re scared, those are the times you want to say, yes, I will do it. Yes, I will step up and believe in yourself along the way. But don’t ever decline an opportunity because you’re scared.

Kimberly King:

That’s really great advice. And I don’t think people hear that enough as far as being uncomfortable because it does mean you’re growing. And so that’s, I love that advice. But also you’re doing a great job by the way. And this, you know, it will get easier and easier obviously but it is, hopefully it sounds just like we’re having a conversation, which we are.

Sarah Massey:

Yeah.

Kimberly King:

But you’re so positive about it too. And your experience says everything. Last question. Do you think there are specific skill sets a hiring manager will look for when promoting someone?

Sarah Massey:

I do. I mean, it depends on the position that they can’t supply for. But I do think every leader looks for someone that can collaborate. Every leader that, you know, because I think collaboration is a big piece in any organization. So I think leaders look for someone that is collaborative, someone that comes with a voice. I think it is really important because I think everyone’s ideas matter. I think everyone’s perspectives matter. And you might not always agree with someone’s perspective, but how you disagree matters, right? There’s definitely different ways to have a disagree with someone, but still be collaborative in the same room in the same space, right? And so I think leaders always look for someone that can have that voice and be collaborative. share differences and opinions with respect. I think that’s huge. Because I always look back at in terms of like, my current team members that had over the last 11 years and why some didn’t get promoted and ended up moving on. And that was one of the skills that really kind of shown through is their inability to collaborate professionally. 

So I think that’s really the number one. I think self-awareness, I think leaders look for someone that is self-aware, that knows their strengths, that knows their opportunities, and can humble themselves to be open to learn, be open to feedback, and then be open to growing. And again, I think it also goes down to your ability to build relationships, build effective relationships, especially when you are going to be the voice of a department or a voice of multiple departments, having relationships and being able to support one another and also being able to work with one another effectively towards a common goal, super, super important.

Kimberly King:

This is great. And again, hopefully we’ll have you back on. We’re going to have to cut this short now, but we so appreciate your time, Sarah. And if you want more information, you can visit National University’s website. It is nu.edu. And thank you for all of your information. Congratulations on your promotions, and we look forward to your next visit.

Sarah Massey:

Awesome, thank you so much for having me.

Kimberly King:

Awesome. You’ve been listening to the National University podcast for updates on future or past guests. Visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.