0:00:01 – Announcer

You are listening to the National University Podcast.

0:00:10 – Kimberly King

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University Podcast, where we offer a holistic approach to student support, well-being and success- the whole human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners. Hi, I’m Kimberly King, and this episode will take a deep dive into the world of marketing in a remote environment with one of the top CEOs in the field. Working from home has exploded in the past four years, with more and more companies providing remote work opportunities or we call this a hybrid model, where workers are only in the office for a few days a week. That means remote workers need to be managed differently. You will find out how a true leader helped keep her employees engaged, and productive. This is groundbreaking innovation in today’s workplace, so stay tuned, and you can learn how you can help grow your organization and retain the best talent.

On today’s episode, we’re talking about marketing in a remote environment, and joining us is the founder of the Phoenix Lifestyle Marketing Group, Elizabeth Kemp Caulder, and after more than a quarter century serving in executive leadership at prominent agencies, providing brand strategy and marketing expertise to some of the largest and most recognizable brands in the world, Elizabeth founded the Phoenix Lifestyle Marketing Group, an award-winning strategic marketing and communications agency specializing in insight-driven solutions. The Phoenix mission is to unite brands and audiences through exceptional brand strategy, campaign design and program execution. Founded in 2019 on the promise and premise of remote work to support recruitment of the highest caliber talent, able to work from location that makes them their happiest, most productive self. The Phoenix is fueled by its carefully curated team, chosen for their diverse perspectives, incomparable skills and extensive subject matter expertise. As the founder and chief brand strategist at the Phoenix, Elizabeth leads her team in brand development, design and while inspiring their personal and professional growth. Her partnerships include many great organizations like Deloitte, Denae Development Corporation, EdChoice, March of Dimes, the National Football League, Tulane University of Dimes, the National Football League, Tulane University, Unify, the Makers of Reprieve, USAA Vehicles for a Change and WM, formerly Waste Management.

The agency was also named the SBA Minority-Owned Small Business of the Year, and Elizabeth herself has been honored as an Enterprising Woman of the Year, The Daily Record’s Most Admired CEO, Black Women in Media, BWIM Honoree, incorporated Female Founders 250, top 100 Leading Women and a finalist in Cosmopolitan Magazine’s the New C-Suite, among other accolades. And we welcome you to the podcast, Elizabeth. Wow, that is impressive. How are you?

0:03:24 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

I’m doing well. Thank you so much. I’m happy to be here.

0:03:27 – Kimberly King

Great, well, why don’t you fill our audience in a little bit on your mission and your work before we get to today’s topic?

0:03:36 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

Absolutely. I’ve been in the marketing industry for the better part of the last three decades and leading different marketing agencies decades. I spent a lot of time in space in these leadership positions, learning. I’ve had great experiences, really teaching opportunities and learning opportunities for me to know how to do things, how to do things very well and how to be very effective. I also learned quite a bit about when the buck stops with me, what things I would never, ever do, and so I think that launching an agency like the Phoenix is very important in that I’m able to one. make certain that I’ve created a space for the personnel.

We are a ragtag bunch of subject matter experts that hail from all parts of the world, and we create a space, or a virtual space, that allows everyone to show up as their truest self in a place that they are most productive and they’re happiest, but it’s a safe space that allows them not just the flexibility and the latitude to lead as individuals, but also that recognizes and values their contributions.

Also, I had the opportunity to be able to say, if the buck stops with me, that our clients get absolutely not just what they paid for, but they get the world-class result of a commitment to excellence, which we call the Phoenix Standard.

And that commitment to excellence is our stamp of approval, not just because we were paid to do it but because our name is on it. So creating that space has been fantastic. Based on my experience over the course of years we’ve had a number of teams that work remotely or work in remote environments because we run national and sometimes international campaigns., so that puts people here, there, and everywhere. So understanding that flexibility, makes that makes a point that most places, most jobs can be done from anywhere, and so I learned that quite a bit uh, over the past 30 years with the- not the advanced technology that we have today, but the, you know somewhat archaic technology that we were using 10 or 20 years ago. And so I founded the Phoenix with the commitment to remote work for that purpose, understanding that flexibility well in advance of the pandemic, based on those experiences.

0:06:12 – Kimberly King

I love it and good for you. You’re a pioneer. I love the name Phoenix, I think that really is so encompassing, and I love that you said that was your ragtag crew, so you’ve really hit the leadership mark. So today, in addition to our topic, we’re pleased to announce a new book that the Center for the Advancement of Virtual Organizations has published, and it’s called Winning in the Virtual Workspace, which, again, you were well ahead of the game. It sounds like it’s an innovative book. It’s authored by 10 leading experts in the field, packed with invaluable insights, practical strategies and cutting-edge techniques, and this book is your ultimate guide to thriving in the digital workspace. And so, Elizabeth, tell us a little bit about this project.

0:06:59 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

So CAVO, or the Center for Advancement of Virtual Organizations, I have been connected with them for the last few years through a personal relationship or referral, participating in podcasts and things like that, because we were one of- especially on the front end of the pandemic- we were one of a group of organizations that already had kind of cracked the nut on virtual work and virtual leadership, and so I was able to participate with them quite a bit to share that kind of insight and wisdom, especially for organizations who had not yet had to make that jump, and the pandemic caused them to try to figure out how to, one, keep the wheels turning on the machine but, two, doing so in a way that keeps their folks connected to their organization’s missions. And so, I was really honored to be invited to participate in those engagements with CAVO. This particular project is like a culmination of that, and it was a tremendous honor to be asked to participate in this book.

This publication has so many interesting perspectives from the different experts, the different authors on remote work and remote leadership, engagement of your personnel. How do you keep people one, connected, but two, inspired to continue to move the work forward? And so, it’s been a wonderful experience of collaboration. You know you mentioned my knowledge or my understanding of this and my perspective earlier on and it’s also been really great to collaborate and see these different perspectives as well. It helps to kind of fuel and shape the way that we at the Phoenix will even move into the future.

0:08:48 – Kimberly King

Well, I think again it’s a perfect. Where you’ve landed and what you’ve been able to create with all of your past experience, it sounds like the perfect fit. And today we are talking about marketing in a remote environment, and I love that you were ahead of the game on this. How long have you been in the marketing industry and what would you say are the key sites that you’ve learned throughout this time?

0:09:12 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

So I’ve been in the marketing industry. I actually out of business school- I say this as an entrepreneur I did not ever intend to be an entrepreneur. It wasn’t on my list of things to do. Partly, because I had a love for brand design and marketing and then also consumer and audience insights. And so out of business school I went directly into the field of marketing, moving very quickly up the chain, the proverbial chain of command, if you would, and I learned quite a bit and it was just such a great experience for me. So I never really thought…I never really thought that I would be in a space where I would be building out a remote organization or anything like that.

I really had taken insights over the course of my life and my experience around why we need to put people in a real estate box, why we need to determine, I need to know where you’ve been or where you are. I have to count you by seeing you versus counting you by the contribution that you make.

And so over the course of this better part of the last 30 years, I’ve been collecting those experiences and having an understanding of what does that mean? What does your contribution require? Do I need to see you at 7 am when the doors open? Or do I need to know that your contribution has been made, the value has been contributed and that you’re helping to move our collective mission forward on behalf of our clients? Collecting those experiences has probably been the- a unintentional, an unintentional gem of really not just why, but really the center focus is the people and understanding that our people are what powers our organizations. And so having a people focused approach wasn’t something that I set out to say, I need to build a people focused approach. It was collecting these understandings over the course of my career on when do I need you, how do I need you, and how do I provide enough latitude to give you space and breathing time to be able to provide that in the most productive, efficient, effective way on the business side.

And that requires me to think of you as a person and to prioritize what we call the life-work balance. And so, if we prioritize life and we understand that we work in order typically to make ends meet, sometimes to feed a need for meaning in our lives and so forth, but generally the things that we have to do or that need to do, whether we’re caring for children, caring for a parent, whether we have passions outside of our work and we work so that we can feel those passions, that we prioritize the pieces of life and that by doing so, we create the high level of commitment and confidence in our employees commitment to the work that they do and, as they’re in a place, that they’re recognized and that they’re able to prioritize life over work. Work wins, because you get that highest quality of effort that comes across, and I don’t think that that was something that I ever intended to arrive on. It was just the pieces that you pick up along the way.

And so when I was on the front end of a pandemic in 2019- because no one knew that was coming- everyone should start a company on the front end of a pandemic. [Laughter.] But when I set out, that was the intent was to say I want to build a place that prioritizes the people. And if I prioritize the people, I know that we can deliver excellence, because if they feel valued and they feel seen and they’re in places where they can prioritize the things that they need to do in life without fear of penalty, that they’re going to be able to deliver in an unencumbered way. And that has rung true for the past five years.

0:13:28 – Kimberly King

I love it and, again, it’s really, you know, making sure that that passion is part of the play and seeing the people that you work with and what you’re delivering. It’s sort of almost like a life coach mentality, along with the professional side of it, where you do, you see them and you respect that. We do have our passions outside of what we do for work. You’re blending them and I love that. You founded a virtual company. We were just talking about that before the pandemic. What led you to the decision to build your organization in this non-traditional structure, especially since you said you didn’t see entrepreneur in the future for you?

0:14:07 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

Yes, entrepreneurship was never on my list. Interesting, this is more of a personal tale, but I mentioned earlier in the introduction about picking up these pieces along the course of my career and I worked at an organization- woman-led organization- it was fantastic. I had great experiences there. I was there for 15 years and over the course of that 15 years I learned quite a bit. The CEO of the organization she actually mentored me in many ways, especially on the sides of coming in as a marketer or as a brand strategist, by trade. From an entrepreneurship standpoint, I learned by watching her and so she gave a great number of opportunities for me to see behind the curtain and that helped me, through leadership, to really understand the decisions that she was making on behalf of her business.

I left that organization because we didn’t agree on a number of things and we got to a point where I had to understand that it was her company and she was going to make the decisions that she needed to make, which she has every right to do. But I also knew that if there were spaces that I had to believe in the decisions that were being made, especially as the face externally to clients and face internally to staff that I had to be able to 100% put my heart into the decisions that were being made and to believe in them, and so we had to part ways. And so, it was unfortunate and difficult because you’re leaving a safety position, a very comfortable environment. Like I said, I had been there for 15 years. I knew these people, knew the organization, knew the clients and, departing I didn’t even know where I was going to go. I just knew that I could no longer do this and so I stepped away, not really certain, but because the position was comfortable and because I probably have some shrewd, I’m cheap, so I have some shrewd saving practices I was in a good place to not have to worry about where would I go next. And, quite frankly, I didn’t actually have to worry about where I was going to go next, because the first thing that happened is the client started contacting me asking me could you come and lead our efforts? And I just felt that that was messy because it would put me in a position where I would work with the same agency and I didn’t think that that was the right thing to do. So I waited and I spent time with my husband and my kids. It was fantastic.

I also had a client, a former client, who had started a suite of agencies, and in that suite of agencies he reached out to me and he said we have a marketing agency in this suite. It’s grown rapidly, probably about the same size of the last agency that I had been in leadership at, but it had grown so rapidly that he needed someone to take the helm and to be able to apply rigors to it. And so I spent some time like investigating what was going on there and I took that role and it was fantastic. Um, the people were great, the clients were wonderful and I stepped in understanding what I needed to do. Um, unfortunately, after putting my wheels in motion and my plan in play, about four or five months after that, uh, I got contacted by the um, the CEO, parent company, and he let me know that he was dismantling the subsidiaries, including the one that I was running. Effective immediately.

0:17:51 – Kimberly King

Oh my gosh. Wow.

0:17:52 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

Not news that anybody wants to have, but yes, and so I needed to notify the clients and notify the personnel that this thing was happening. I felt that was my responsibility and I felt like I was going to be the messenger who would be shot, because everyone chooses the messenger. But what I got was the opposite. I actually had personnel that they felt anchored to what, even in the short months, anchored to the culture that we were building, and there were requests that if there was opportunity for them to work under my direction in the future, that they would love to have that happen. Similarly, I expected the clients to be very upset based on the fact that programs, things that were paid for and ready to go and planned out that were not going to occur.

But what I got was the opposite there as well. I got actually one client said we’ve seen what you can do over just a few months in leadership and oversight and how and direction, and so couldn’t you just start your own agency and we could have a continuity? And I said no! [Laughter]. That’s not on my list of things to do, yeah, but what I did was I thought, um, what if I could take all of those people and put them back to work doing what they love in a place that recognizes them and values them and doing the work that they really believe in. And I said, you know, also, I believe that God, or whatever your higher power might be, has a crazy little sense of humor. And then, anytime you think that you’re in charge of your plan, surprise, surprise, here’s this thing.

0:19:33 – Kimberly King

That’s one of my favorite things, that’s true.

0:19:37 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

It is. It’s funny because every time you feel very confident that you’re down your right path and you’re in charge of you know you’re captain of your own ship, then there’s always the surprise that says no, you’re not. And here’s this other thing which is a gift to you. And so I founded the Phoenix, which is how we were named, literally out of the ashes of that last agency.

And so I was joined by not just personnel that were at that agency, but personnel that I’ve worked with, team members, colleagues that I’ve worked with over the past several agencies over the past 30 years, clients, a few clients, a few suppliers that just believed in this idea that doing business the right way is the only way to do business and that there’s power in what we do, and that there’s power in what we do. And so if there’s power in what we do, then we should be selective about who we do it for and why, and be able to be willing to come and join a group that really wants to be focused on this commitment to work with organizations that are resolute about bringing the light to the world, so leveraging our powers for the forces of good.

0:20:43 – Kimberly King

Yeah, I love it.

0:20:46 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

Like I said the phoenixes, we are just that. We’re not a cute name. We have meaning behind- we have risen from the ashes, and we continue to rise and expand on exponential growth for this organization in such a short time, in the midst of and beyond a global pandemic, it’s been fantastic, but all fueled by the people.

0:21:06 – Kimberly King

I love that and I love that you’re so- your mission statement- you live your mission statement and it’s evident from the inside to the outside and you can really see where your leadership has been sparked on that commitment to that remote setting. In a remote setting where face-to-face interactions are limited, what tips would you give to leaders looking to build trust and connection within their teams?

0:21:32 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

So I feel like the tactics that you deploy are the same. You just have to be intentional about them. Many organizations especially, you know, nowadays there’s many organizations are trying to force people back into brick and mortar locations, even though that it might be a square peg in a round hole now, but part of it is that there is a comfort level for leadership and management. Right, I know that it’s much easier for me to sit in my office and have people walk by and be like, oh okay, I needed to talk to Kimberly today and she happened to walk by. Kimberly, can you come here for a second so that I can tell you this thing, because it’s very convenient for me, or to be able to summon everyone at my beck and call at a whim to be able to pull everyone together, but it really is not necessary. So if we need those things, right, we need water cooler conversations, we need the walk back from the conference room after the meeting, we need, you know, the lunch- people in the lunchroom- and that kind of collaboration, because a lot of times it’s in those spaces that are not structured that, not just collaboration ideas happen, things that organizations need um and become necessary. We lose those things if we’re not intentional in how we structure our work from a remote standpoint.

So I say we use an acronym and we call it TEAMS. So the acronym TEAMS, the first is trust. Right, trust is key. And trust goes both ways. And so if you want your personnel or your team, your people, to trust you, you have to be transparent with them. You have to be clear. So that means that even if they’re not walking by when something happens to occur, even if you’re not running into them, you know on the way to the conference room or the vending machine or what have you, that you have to be intentional about sharing information transparently with them so they understand the state of the business, what’s happening, how it may affect them, whether those things are great things that we want to celebrate, or those things are things that we need to shore up because we have some concerns that we need to put some Band-Aids on or to fix or to redistribute. So I think that trust starts with us as leaders.

In addition to that, there is this- especially the folks that are forcing folks back into real estate- I think that, I understand. You made an expenditure and investment in real estate. So you need to get that. You know, make the investment make sense for you. I get it, um, but a big part, especially in past, uh, eras of leadership, there’s been a lack of trust. So there is the, if you think about it, there’s the punching of the clock, right. I need to know that you showed up, I need to know when you left, I need to know when you took a break. You know all of those things, and in some businesses the model requires that, but most it does not, especially in my business.

In my business, we hire professionals, not just professionals, adults who are qualified to do a job, and we qualified them in the interviewing process, in the selection process, in the onboarding process. So if I then hire a professional and bring them into the door and then give them the tools that allows you to have an understanding of how to deliver excellence from the Phoenix standard, then I also need to trust you to do your job, and so I don’t- I don’t need to know that you had to take, you know, your child to the doctor in the middle of the day. I mean, your time’s probably blocked out. I don’t need to police when you show up when you leave or if you, you know, in many cases, most of us as professionals, we work after hours anyway. People take work home, they do things on the weekend, so trusting your personnel to do what you hired them to do is absolutely necessary. Now, if they breach that trust because they’re not delivering what they’re supposed to be delivering, they’re shortcutting. There are decisions that need to be made on that. But you need to cross that bridge when you come to it, and sometimes that it’s not just that you’ve trusted them, but it’s these other pieces that you need to do in order to make certain that they can be successful right.

The second part of team so that’s our T is trust, our E is engage, and so making sure that we are engaged with them on a regular basis is incredibly important. So that engagement requires- it’s easy to get lost if you’re not in these spaces regularly. It’s easy to find yourself stuck in your own leadership huddle and doing the things that you need to do that are on your list. So you have to be intentional again about establishing the engagement. How do I engage you right? So that establishing the engagement is um, not just status meetings and um, program meetings, project meetings. There’s the things that you put on the calendar typically when you’re in the brick and mortar space, but that intention that I was talking about earlier, we lose the water cooler. So in my organization we schedule water cooler chats and they’re not intended to talk about anything business related. They are intended to tie like they have conversations with people on my team about what’s going on in the world, the same things that you would talk about if you saw them in the parking lot and you knew that someone just recently had a baby or that someone had been sick. You would have those conversations not just because you’re in a meeting, but you have to be intentional about making sure that you are engaged and connected. So of course, the program, project, statuses are important, but it’s also important to engage with people the same way that you would on a personal level if you were working in an office space with them.

A for me is avoid, and avoid is about interruption.

So I worked in a place at one point and we had, like a speaker and it was a professional settings, bunch of marketers and you know, people in cubicles, people in offices, but there would be what, what we called the all call, and it was basically a one of the members of the leadership team would get on this speaker and just name people to come to his office. and it was horrifying. And so, from my experience, I thought it was an awful thing to do, especially because if we’re trusting people to do their job and knowing the work that we do, it requires brainpower and focus. And so if I’m focused, whether I’m in a spreadsheet or I’m in a campaign design, it doesn’t matter what it is. But if I’m in there and I hear my name and I got to stop doing what I’m doing right now to go do this thing, and it’s that level of interruption. So that’s an extreme example, right, that’s super extreme. However, when we’re virtual and everyone has you know whatever softwares you’re using to communicate with one another, interruption is easy, because you can either just ping them.

0:29:16 – Kimberly King

Oh right.

0:29:17 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

Or you can actually dial into their desk and call them on our software so we can call one another in video calls, and it may seem like stopping by someone’s office, right, because you’re desk to desk, but in reality, if you stop by someone’s office and the door was closed and you were able to see in and it looks like they’re busy I’ll come back later you don’t have the ability to do that here, and so, in these virtual spaces, it’s important for us to make sure that we avoid interruption. Or, if the interruption is necessary, so by sending that email or that chat message to say, hey, do you have a minute? Or, even better, looking at their calendar and finding a space that they are showing that is open, and just scheduling and being intentional about when you need to talk to them. And that goes back to this you know the leadership privilege, the leadership privilege again summoning you to my office, or you know the leadership privilege of just deciding that I, I, it’s convenient to me for now to talk to you, and so it’s. It’s making sure that we shed that right, and so it’s making sure that we shed that right and really be cognizant of what people need to do, because what people need to do is exactly what we need them to be doing. Avoiding that interruption is the A, and I think that that also is just really focused on making sure that we’re trusting them to do the work, but that we’re also respectful of them in their time.

Make use is my M, and that’s making use of tools. Right, there are all types of tools that are out there that you can use to collaborate. There are also tools that you can use if you really need to understand how people are spending their time, what are they doing. There are tools that you can use that don’t feel like big brother. They don’t feel like someone is, you know, tracking you but really reporting on efficiencies and things like that.

There are tools that you can use that make for productivity, that allow us to be productive, that allow us to connect very well together, but making certain that you understand what your needs are, and I can guarantee you that, if you list out the needs of what you feel like you need in order to manage a group or to lead a group, that there are probably umpteen tools for each one of those needs, and then it’s just figuring out which ones work best for you. And then the final letter is S for teams and S is about scheduling, and so I know that I mentioned engagement earlier and like scheduling time to engage and scheduling time to make sure that we are connected. But scheduling is incredibly important. So it’s not just scheduling day-to-day or week-to-week, but really understanding, like, how our projects come together and making certain that those milestones especially if we represent multiple brands, so different timelines how do those things come together? So really, really thinking about major milestones not overlapping and having an understanding of how we schedule so that people don’t ever feel stressed.

I mean there are going to be fire drills, there are going to be things that will happen that every you know, It’s all hands on deck and we have to figure this thing out, but that should be the exception and not the rule. And so being intentional about our scheduling not just for our own time but for the time of our teams, and how that works when there are overlapping priorities. And then one final thing on scheduling, which I think is incredibly important we schedule fun. It’s important, right, if you are in a brick and mortar location, there will be baby showers, there will be birthday celebrations, there will be we won the yada yada, the award for best blah blah blah, and there will be celebrations and fun activities and things that happen in the live space. It’s one of the things that falls off the list, and so making certain that we schedule time for us to just have fun and be people helps to make sure that this remote environment so teams- trust, engage, avoid, make use and schedule, especially fun.

0:33:40 – Kimberly King

I love that. I was just taking notes as you were saying that. That’s wonderful. I love that and I love that you schedule fun. You know we should do those team interactions and really we’re working with them, and I love that you also schedule water cooler conversations. I think that’s so important when working remote. So what have you noticed? What are some of the common communication pitfalls in remote work settings and what is the key to effectively navigating these challenges?

0:34:12 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

So I do think that common pitfalls with regard to communication are defaulting to the email. So I know that we said avoid interruptions. But if you type every message, you miss body language, you miss eye contact, you miss opportunities for clarification because it gets lost, I might not ask the additional follow up question. You also lose tonality. And so if anybody’s ever sent an email that is intended to be just matter of fact but it turns into a nightmare because it gets so easily misunderstood, because the tone is not there, you can add as much fluffy language as you’d like to, but it still can get misunderstood. And I believe that one of the tenets of our organization that is true is that our culture trumps everything. If we don’t like working with each other, if we do not get along, we cannot be successful, and so no one has an expectation that everyone’s going to be best friends, has an expectation that everyone’s going to be best friends.

But the Phoenix is supposed to be the best place to work and the best place to work for. So that’s a two-way street, and so the communication part is key. It’s also part of our selection. If we have someone and I say this all the time I can have someone with a hundred percent attitude. If I have a person with a hundred percent attitude and you have 50% aptitude, I can bring you up, we can work together to develop you, but if I have someone with 100% aptitude and a 50% attitude, they don’t belong here because I can’t change your attitude, I cannot make you a different person or have you have a different person or have you have a different.- you know, that part of the life coach, Kimberly, is that’s- I’m not a life coach and I don’t have I don’t have the ability or the not just the ability, but the even the flexibility to be able to provide that for someone.

So communication is so key and so if we default to all of our all of our comms, being through text or chat or something like that, things get lost.

Information falls by the wayside. Things that I would have been able to say faster and clearer out loud might not get typed. But then also there is that tonality part of it that makes things feel not as constructive or not as collaborative. So there’s a balance between the types of information that you want to communicate via chat or via email. You know, there’s lengthy things that you need to spell out, probably needs to be in a document, but that document or that email, if it’s a lot of important information, also warrants a meeting. So that lengthy email either is a precursor to a meeting where we’re going to discuss it, or it is a meeting where we discuss things and then we send this lengthy communication afterwards as a recap, but really understanding like what pieces of communication need to be verbal, with face-to-face conversations like you would have in a brick and mortar, face-to-face office situation, and making certain that we apply I wouldn’t say the same approaches, but that we are probably even more intentional about our behaviors when we’re remote.

0:37:44 – Kimberly King

You know, that’s funny and I think this could be a whole other top of a topic of conversation. And when you work with the next generation, shall we say, you know, the generation coming up, then the younger set, but I even in a text. So email can be definitely misconstrued, but sometimes text can. And I was sending a text and I put and I I was an English minor, but I was pausing in my thoughts, so I did the dot dot dot and he came up to me and he said we don’t do that anymore. And it made me laugh. But I appreciated him telling me and communicating with me and I said, oh my gosh, I hope that I didn’t bother you with that. And I was just pausing a thought. So anyway, it was funny. But the way we communicate via text or via email, it matters and it is different than in person, isn’t it? So I love that you talked about that.

0:38:39 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

It absolutely is. And you mentioned about generations. I think, when we think about audience sets, because, of the nature of what we do.

We connect brands with audiences. We move audiences to action, and all of that is rooted in audience insight. Yes, and so, if you understand, you know the different cuts of an audience you have. You know your generational cuts. Yes, their world is different and they’ve grown and evolved. It’s different than other generations. And then, even within that, there are also the other demographic breakdowns. Right, there are cultural and lifestyle qualifiers that put you in all of these different little boxes. And really understanding all of the different cuts that make you, you know what, what boxes or circles do you belong in drive, not just how you communicate, but how you receive communication. So that’s a really great point. Can, really, and because that’s what we do, that’s what we do for our clients. Shame on us, we don’t do it amongst ourselves.

0:39:48 – Kimberly King

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just to have that wherewithal and realize, and I was really proud of him for coming to me and I said OK, thank you, duly noted. So do you have suggestions for an effective way that leaders in remote environments can ensure that those that they lead in a sense of inclusion and belonging?

0:40:08 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

Yeah, I think that’s a fantastic segue. Understanding that people are people, I think, is the basic, fundamental rule. And if we understand that people are people and we understand what we just talked about, like, what are the circles, what are the concentric circles that we may share, so how do we create connection in that way? Because there are things that we do have in common, that we all have in common, but also understanding the nuances of what we do not have, what we do not share, the things that we don’t have in common, but really understanding them, not just, not just understanding them and not just accepting them. Right, because I think that tolerating- we don’t want to tolerate, right? We want to celebrate what makes each of us unique, and what makes each of us unique- not just on an individual as part of those larger groups, some of the things that make us unique, are the things that we share together, and the combination of all of those things are what make us very unique. At the Phoenix, we say that we believe in the power of the diversity of thought and experience, and so in our organization we’re intentional, not just in celebrating diversity, but diversity is an intention. So we actually recruit intentionally to make sure that we have different perspectives, different seats at the table, different understandings, which is part of our experience is to be a global unit right, a microcosm of the world, and so being intentional about how you recruit gives you unique perspective that drive growth and evolution, expansion, insight, invention, and so we focus on that. I would make an argument that any organization, remote or otherwise, should use that as a focus on a tenant.

In addition to that, I mentioned, you know, the life work balance and things like that earlier. So there’s this part about inclusion with regard to demographics, demography, there also is inclusion based on the lifestyle experience of the individual, right, and so we make it a point to make certain that, regardless of who you are and where you are, we make it a point to make certain that you feel like you belong and that you are not just accepted but you are a celebrated part of the group, and that means that when you have different experiences, things that bring you away from the work that we do, that there’s not certain things that you get time off for right. Oh, Susie has kids, Billy has kids and they have to do the school drop off or they have to pick up the sick kid, but the people that don’t have children don’t get that same flexibility, that same understanding. So the life work balance is about your life and balancing it with the work that you’re required to do here. And so I think that that is also a facet of inclusion, that we lose. The Phoenix in the wake of the murder of George Floyd. We are a marketing agency, but in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, we had many of our clients reaching back to us and asking us if, understanding brand architecture the way that we do, if we could support them and help them to build more inclusive spaces in their organizations. And so we have been a partner to many organizations in building strategy around creating workplaces that are not just committed to belonging but demonstrate those commitments through deeds and actions, and I think that that is another component of this, right?

Creating inclusive spaces, regardless of where you are, requires strategy. It requires you to create safe spaces for people in groups that are historically marginalized, that it requires you to think about those things even if they’re not part of your own reality, but it also requires you to understand, when you make those shifts programmatically, that there were groups that used to receive a level of privilege that they didn’t recognize in many cases, and it’s easy to shift into this space where we’re going to be focused about these groups that have been left behind or forgotten or not, or or under supported, and when we create a strategy that only focuses on them, we create angst with the majority group that now feels like they’re losing something, and so it’s important for us to, when we’re trying to create inclusive spaces, for us to think about the whole right. This is probably, in some cases, not a popular opinion, but it is strategic in nature to make sure that you have an entire organization that is able to move forward. Yes, there is attrition of privilege that will happen as a result of us shifting resources and focusing on these groups, but there cannot be a lack of focus on how it will impact the group of folks that were already there. And so there have to be intentional engagement activities and educational activities for that group, and then also ways for you to be able to bring folks together.

Many organizations will say I want to create these safe spaces. So now you have all these safe spaces where people can kind of go and talk, and those things are very valuable. It’s incredibly important, but they’ve missed out on the strategy of the intent is to create a space that is inclusive of all, and so there has to be ways for you to integrate those groups and not to say that you lose the safe space, but really to be able to bring folks that are outside of those groups into the fold so that they can achieve a deeper understanding of what’s different. And how do I create the level of appreciation that’s necessary so that we all can be celebrated?

0:46:33 – Kimberly King

I love that and it is true. I mean, the whole world has shifted and moving along with that. So a lot of companies now are trying to find ways to encourage and you mentioned this even force them to come back to work into the brick and mortar spot. How will this be successful in the effort?

0:46:52 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

Why and why not? I don’t believe it will be successful in turning back time to a pre-pandemic level of people being in the office. I don’t think it’s going to happen, nor do I think that it should. There are organizations that have made an investment in real estate and it obviously makes sense for them to try to realize that investment and make use of it. I get it, totally. But the investments that they made in real estate pre-pandemic had an understanding that everyone needed to be in that office space. What the pandemic proved to organizations, not like the Phoenix, but many of the organizations of my co-authors things that we knew already. What it proved to the individual person, the employee, is that they could do their job more effectively, in many cases, remotely, than they could in the office space.

And the trade-off that they were going to have in some cases is three hours, four hours in commute time a day, right? 20 hours a week on the road. The environment, the environmental impact of traffic there are so many different facets to that right. So pre-pandemic understanding of what the world looked like and how many people were going to be sitting in desks in office buildings. I don’t believe that we’ll ever be successful at returning to that space and I don’t believe that we should. I think that we’ve learned. We’ve learned a lot of awful lessons, right, but one of the really great lessons that we did learn is this understanding that we can still, as organizations, reap the benefits of the work week, of the work day, without requiring you to sacrifice X amount of hours that you could have otherwise spent with your family or working on the thing that you’re passionate about doing, the thing that you do outside of work. Um, we have tools and incredible amounts of insights. I know um, even through the, from reading the chapters of my coauthors as well. Like this, there’s so much knowledge about how to lead in these spaces and how to have these organizations continue to be productive. There’s no reason for us to return to that space, other than just being comfortable with what that looked like before and then wanting to go back to that comfort.

Does that mean that the real estate market for office spaces is going to change? Absolutely. I think the way that we’ll think about things will be different. So many of these organizations that are creating these mandates are going to see that, yes, you can have people that will come back. They may not be your best people. And so this goes back to even you know, I mentioned this earlier the Phoenix was founded on the promise remote work so that we could recruit. If we have a competitive agency that says no, everybody has to be here in this office. Well, we’re going to win each and every time. Because those people who don’t- not just don’t want to, but can’t- I cannot leave my children alone, or I have an elderly parent that I don’t want to put into a home. I don’t have that kind of care, those kind of decisions that people have to make in their lives. They don’t have the ability, but they are the most qualified candidate and we should be selecting the most qualified candidates.

So, if it comes down to the mandate, or or the flexibility to prioritize life and be able to reap the benefits of work that come as a result the life, work balance and the power of remote work is going to win out each and every time, and so what we’ll see is the mandates, and then you’ll see the attrition of quality. You’ll see organizations, especially powerhouse organizations, where they’ll start to falter. And their competitors, they’re more nimble, open to evolution and insight and innovation. Those competitors are going to begin to lead or they’re going to get very uncomfortable with some friction, and then those organizations are going to have to start to make different decisions in order to remain competitive going to have to start to make different decisions in order to remain competitive.

0:51:30 – Kimberly King

Yeah, I think again, it’s that work-life balance. My mom lived with us for a little bit, had Alzheimer’s and to really expose my children to that, to have it all, we were all under one roof and trying to do that balance with school and everything. So we all have something right and I think it’s nice to be recognized for that. And then again, that talks about the next generation. They see that. They see that we’re all hands on deck and we’re trying to balance everything and everybody has a story. So I love that. Elizabeth, what would you say that in a remote setting where face-to-face interactions are limited, and what tips would you give to leaders looking to build and trust and connection within their teams?

0:52:18 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

I would say that trust and connection within your teams. One there is the initiating, the trust and connection. So I mentioned teams earlier. The trust engage, avoid, make use and then schedule especially fun. Yeah, in addition to that, I think that there has to be an understanding of not just when we are doing these things, but we are modeling behaviors, that we have the expectations that every level of the organization continue to happen, and so we cannot mandate collaboration, but what we find is that people start to build together with one another. So being able to fuel those things I think is very important.

Finding that you have teams that are meeting together independently, not about any work related thing, but they’re finding time for them to make those connections as they would in the workplace, I think is necessary. It’s really exciting to see that it happens organically. But in the absence of that, we have to make it okay, we have to communicate, and that goes back to that trust and transparency, to make it okay for you to understand that in your space, in your space of time that you’re working, that we are hopeful that you are going to find ways and avenues for you to connect with one another, but that we are intentional about making sure that we are all connected together in scheduling those things and being thoughtful, not just intentional. Thoughtful about what those things should be right? We can make sure that everybody eats food together but really thinking about what those audiences, what those groups, those individuals, what fuels them, what makes them excited, what are the things that make them happy, that make them feel, and what are the things that we can contribute in order to make certain that that happens. So, whether we’re scheduling fun or we’re scheduling our regular kind of collaboration team lunches, like the things that we do, but the activities that we bring, one of the other things that I haven’t touched on are the other pieces that are intentional and live when we talk about all the technology.

But one of the things that we do is we also make certain, and we provide these services for our clients as well, but we make certain that when we have an experience where everyone’s going to do something whether it’s fun or it’s inspirational, like what things that we’re going to do and we’re going to be meeting remotely, there are live, experiential components of that, and so we make sure that we know what we’re planning to do and what are the things that will bring that to life for each individual, and we send gift packs and so we’ll build- There’s an unboxing experience because it should be beautiful, it should feel like a gift, it should feel like it was not just intentional, but it was meant for you and that there was value there, and we provide those in advance. So there are things that you have that are around you or near you while we’re having an experience together that will be virtual.

And that also gives you the opportunity to have something that harken back to things that I have here and surrounding me on my desk, or little things that come from those experiences, but they are memories, the same things that you would have in your cubicle or in your office, in your space, but being able to provide those in a remote location is also incredibly important to the experience.

0:55:35 – Kimberly King

I love that. That is so true and people love those. You know they do spark memories, but you’re also feeling just, you know, good about where that environment and supported and seen, so I love all of that. What final piece of advice would you give to leaders striving to lead in a remote environment?

0:55:58 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

I think that final piece of advice is always about trust. I had I mentioned this in the chapter but I had a. I had a college professor. I was a freshman and I had spent all my this is my awakening in undergrad.

But I walked into the classroom and we all sat large lecture hall and he stood down way down front and on his little microphone speaker he said he would be here. I’ll be here if you need me. If you need me, I will be here each and every day. If you need to talk, if you have questions, I’m going to be here talking about the things that you need to know.

But if you don’t need this and you thrive in a space that doesn’t do this because a lot of us as individuals are not as comfortable in these kind of one-on-one or face-to-face or those kind of onstage experiences they’re off-putting, and so if you have the knowledge and the understanding to deliver excellence and you don’t need to come here to get it from me I’ll see you at the final exam and whatever grade you get on the final exam is the grade that you’ll get for the course. But if you need me, I’ll be here. I’ll also be doing quizzes along the way so that you can test your knowledge, all these things. And I remember being struck by that one, because I had never experienced that you didn’t have to go to class, and so I was like wait, I mean, in college, in most cases you don’t have to go to class, but they’re still taking attendance.

0:57:41 – Kimberly King

Right, right, exactly. That’s a choice, yeah.

0:57:43 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

I can take the attendance, and so that experience is probably one of the most powerful ones that led me into this space, where, if you don’t need to be in a location to do the things that you need to do, I just need to know that you got them done.

0:57:58 – Kimberly King

Isn’t that crazy.

0:57:58 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

Go ahead. I also need you to know that if you need me, even if it’s outside of the things that trust engage, avoid the scheduling. If you need me, I’m here. That’s the same thing that you would have in a brick and mortar space where someone would tap the door and say, hey, do you have a minute? That we are open and available for those things that are not yet on the calendar, but that there is that understanding. I would urge that that trust is there, that they can trust, that they can rely on you, but that there is that understanding, but that you also are trusting them to be independent and to do the things that you highly believed and were confident that they could deliver when you hired them.

0:58:43 – Kimberly King

I love that and I love that your professor planted that seed, even though you didn’t even realize it at the time, and you said it was so powerful, but it was also so empowering to look at where you are now. So what a delightful conversation and I just feel like I learned so much about leading in that remote workspace and I really appreciate you joining us today, and if you want more information, you can visit National University’s website it is nu.edu, and thank you so much for your time, Elizabeth. We really appreciate all of your knowledge.

0:59:16 – Elizabeth Kemp Caulder

Thank you so much, Kimberly. It’s been a pleasure, it’s been a really incredible ride and I’m really excited about folks having the opportunity to get the insights from this great book.

0:59:28 – Kimberly King

Excellent, congratulations! You’ve been listening to the National University Podcast. For updates on future or past guests, visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.