0:00:10 – Kimberly King

Hello, I’m Kimberly King. Welcome to the National University Podcast, where we offer a holistic approach to student support, well-being and success – the whole human education. We put passion into practice by offering accessible, achievable higher education to lifelong learners. On today’s episode, we’re discussing proximity bias, and joining us is Nadia Harris.

Nadia is the founder of RemoteWorkAdvocate.com, an international remote and hybrid work expert, remote work lawyer, keynote speaker, university lecturer and author of numerous flexible working publications, including her own book called How to Tackle Hybrid Working. She is a leader in remote and hybrid work according to the top 15 remote work advocates ranking prepared by all American speakers, the report who’s who in Remote Working and Global Remote Innovator, according to Remote. She has worked with numerous international companies, both startups and structured corporations, such as Roche, Mantrax, Volkswagen, dell, amazon and many others. Nadia prides herself on having improved compliance, performance, scalability and teamwork in both remote first, and hybrid companies. As a third culture child with a background in living and working in various countries, she deeply explores the possibilities of distributed work. Her fluency in English, German, Polish, and French allows her to collaborate with clients across the US, Europe, Asia and Africa. Nadia holds a legal degree and an MBA in Intercultural Managerial Communication. That is so impressive. Nadia, we welcome you to the podcast. How are you?

0:01:58 – Nadia Harris

Thank you very much for your kind words and I’m really excited to be here. Totally appreciate the invite and being part of this initiative.

0:02:05 – Kimberly King

Wonderful. I can’t wait to hear more about it Before we get to today’s show topic. Why don’t you fill our audience in a little bit on your mission and your work? Oh, absolutely.

0:02:15 – Nadia Harris

So I work with remote first and hybrid companies all around the team building, remote work, infrastructures and also compliance. So, basically, to make it work no matter where the people are, and my mission is to enable individuals to work for a great company, no matter where they come from or live, because I believe that everybody has the should have the opportunities, because the digital era is this.

0:02:39 – Kimberly King

Fantastic. Well, you sure have you know really, I guess experienced what other cultures are, and then now being able to kind of really mesh that by being able to work hybrid. So I’m really interested in what you have to say here today. In addition to our topic, we’re pleased to announce the new book the Center for the Advancement of Virtual Organizations has published, and it’s called Winning in the Virtual Workplace. It’s an innovative book authored by 10 leading experts in their field and you are one of them and so it’s packed with invaluable insights, practical strategies and cutting-edge techniques. This book is your ultimate guide to thriving in this digital workspace, and so, Nadia, tell us a little bit about that project.

0:03:21 – Nadia Harris

Yeah, so I think it’s an interesting project to be part of because, um all the experts that participated this initiative and also who contributed to this book, they talk about flexible working, remote working, hybrid working from a different perspective, so they bring so much to the table and I believe that all of us have the possibility to create awareness and creating mindsets and also broad horizons, particularly including leadership within both startups and corporations right To be able to drive change when it comes to new ways of working.

0:03:55 – Kimberly King

Wonderful. Well, today we are talking about proximity bias. And what is that? What is proximity bias, Nadia?

0:04:04 – Nadia Harris

I have a love-hate relationship with it. Love because I think that this topic is very important. Hate because it’s bad. And so proximity bias is an unconscious tendency where people in positions of power or in leadership positions tend to favor the people to them. So, in other words, I see you- that means you’re going to be treated better. And this is a threat in today’s new era of working when we talk about flexibility, when we talk about digital collaboration, and we should be aware of it.

0:04:39 – Kimberly King

Oh, wow, and it’s something good that we talk about because you know for a lot of us, and it’s something good that we talk about because you know for a lot of us it’s rather new since the pandemic that we have, you know, adopted, being viral and being from anywhere and everywhere. But there, yeah, it is something I don’t think about every day, where those biases can be hiding. So why is it important to educate ourselves about bias, proximity bias?

0:05:04 – Nadia Harris

Yeah, it’s because we- well, it’s unconscious and that means that we just unconsciously make certain decisions. And when we look at teams today, when we look at new ways of working, we look at hybrid companies where some people are fully remote, some people only sometimes come to an office, the rest remains in the office full time, for example. And then we look at the managers. We look at all the leadership positions. I think all of us, we are all aware how it was in the past that sitting in an office for very long hours meant, oh, that person is probably engaged, working long hours, coming into the office before I came to the office, leaving after I left. That means it’s probably a good worker and this can create a lot of damage for people that can’t be seen. So for people who are also working very hard but nobody can see them, the same thing applies to situations where we have, for example, remote companies today. And they will look at communication tools and see if the green light is constantly switched on, meaning it’s kind of I call it virtual proximity bias I can’t see you, but I see the green light, so it means you’re there.

But my question is how do we actually track performance? Because we’re used to the concept of nine to five work, we’re required to sit in a certain location for eight hours. Right, and that means that used to equal work in the industrial era. But today it’s all about the output, the goals, the deliverables. And so if we are unaware of proximity bias, we will unconsciously think okay, I will give that person a promotion because that person’s hardworking and the remote one. What do they do at home? I don’t know, but the question is what do they deliver? What’s the quality of their work? And so we are so used to working in an office first environment, because that’s been the reality for decades. So now the question is how do we make decisions to foster diversity and also prevent discrimination? Right, because we can easily discriminate someone who is doing a great job. But just because we don’t see that person, because of our unconscious bias, we will actually never give this person the opportunity to grow.

0:07:32 – Kimberly King

Interesting, and that is again. Those are things that I guess we just we need to say it out loud and you need to be aware of where these biases are. So what are the biggest challenges in terms of managing remote and then the hybrid workforce?

0:07:42 – Nadia Harris

Yeah, so probably so. In terms of the challenges again. So one of them is definitely proximity bias, and I also probably add, like a little bit, where this is even coming from. And so it’s because when we lived in tribes thousands of years ago, being close to others meant we would survive. Being alone meant we die, right? No food, no shelter, no people around right. And that’s why I say it’s part of our DNA to a certain extent. And so this is one of the biggest challenges. How do I know that the people are working? And then my question is how did you know they were working before? Because I saw them. I’m like okay, the fact that you saw them doesn’t mean that you were able to say exactly what has been delivered and how? And so, again, proximity bias and the I see you versus I don’t see you factor is definitely essential, and this causes lots of challenges.

The second challenge that I see is tracking productivity, because some companies tend to, right, they tend to confuse productivity with presenteeism again, and if, for example, track mouse moves, which is absolutely ridiculous, like if you’re tracking mouse moves, you know, be ready that your employees will get so creative that they’ll connect their mouse to a fan that will be moving eight hours a day, like, let’s play this ridiculous game. And people do that. I mean, if you check online forums, they’re like, oh hey, I just fooled my manager. I’m like, yeah, if your manager is so silly to track mouse moves in terms of real performance, then good luck, have fun, both of you, right? So that’s the problem. So, like, what should be delivered by when? What’s the time frame? Who checks the quality? What are the check ins? And also support for individuals in terms of mental health and well-being.

And so the big problem that I see today, which is, which is a bigger problem than just saying, hey, we’ll take care of your well-being by giving you flexibility, is the thing that we, as human beings today, in today’s world, we have never learned to be flexible, just because, since the very first moment we were born, everything is designed. We know when we’re going to daycare, when we’re supposed to go to school, then we get a car, we get our first job, we drive here back and forth, back and forth, and then we move on. So it used to be the front door in an office. Right, we started work, we ended work, that’s it. Today, we get the message oh, you are empowered to be flexible. What do I do? Well, it’s you to take ownership of your life. Also, be proactive, to be able to share results with your manager, like how you speak, how you think you add value, what you bring to the table. And then it’s super important and that’s also one of the biggest challenges that I often hear from companies that they say oh yeah, we’re flexible, we’re figuring it out, so we’re-

I even heard the statement some time ago like everyone’s working their way. I’m like great, so I’m working at five o’clock. You’re working at 11 pm. I take breaks during the day. You don’t respond, I don’t respond. We’re all working out, right? So, working agreements, working together agreements are essential for every team and it doesn’t have to be the same one for the whole company, because every team is different, every team. And it doesn’t have to be the same one for the whole company, because every team is different. But if there are no rules, welcome to a roller coaster that will end up in hurt feelings for both sides.

0:11:14 – Kimberly King

And it’s like the wild wild west. There’s no boundaries, right? So it’s you’re saying you have to really kind of specify that. A lot of it was the unknown, but now that we’ve kind of been going through this for the past couple few years, now there should be boundaries in place. But you know, something back to what you said earlier is how do you know they’re working when you see them, you know, I mean they could be playing games on their computer with the door closed, but at least you see them. So there’s that bias and you never know. You know you’re not standing over them, micromanaging, but yeah, sometimes maybe people can be more productive in their home setting. But that is just so interesting. And yeah, probably those boundaries need to be written. You know, just like you said, following a schedule coloring outside of those lines, how, how can team members make sure they get seen by their managers even though they’re not working from an office?

0:12:08 – Nadia Harris

That’s a very good question and exactly here comes the part of what I was talking about previously. So members also have to understand and I hate to say it and I know it’s going to hurt lots of people now. Nobody is coming to save you. Okay, you can’t sit at home and complain that, oh, my company doesn’t do this, my company doesn’t do that, like, what have you done to express that you are doing valuable work? What have you done? 

So put yourself in a position of your manager or of your company, because you have lots of expectations. Give me flexibility, give me this, give me that. Great to have expectations, and I think the world of work needs to be more human. Okay, to begin with, and that’s definitely the case, but my question is it has to be a mutual relationship where me as an employee, I’m able to say, hey, I want my manager to know how far along I am with my project, so let’s speak up and make a suggestion. Do you think I could share the status with you of all the Wednesday or every Friday? Can I share a report with you? Do I use project management tools? Like how often do I speak up, for example, also in meetings that when I have something to say. I’m not just sitting there to be called out. How do I express my initiative to change things, for example, to foster innovation, right? 

So there also needs to be and this is something that companies have to create, like they have to create an open policy for the people to be able to speak up and to say that talk about things that are like important for them, but also like from an operational perspective, and every individual has to think about it from this perspective that, hey, I am here for a reason within this company, we’re trying to build something together. My success is your success. We are a team.

So if I don’t contribute to the team and I don’t express that I’m part of it and I don’t express how I add value, then I need to complain that my manager is asking me what I’m doing. Because they simply don’t know. Everybody has targets, the question is, how do I make sure I inform my supervisor or my manager about the status, the challenges that I’m having, when I need help. 

And also don’t wait like, for example, you have a deadline on Friday. Don’t wait until three o’clock on Friday to tell your manager I’m sorry, I won’t make it. You know. You probably know you won’t make it on Wednesday because you have a huge problem. You haven’t received, maybe something that you need to complete your work. I think that both sides are at fault, because managers can’t imagine how to lead teams, distributed teams, and also get rid of proximity bias and have very clear goals, kpis, metrics. So that causes the big problem these days.

0:15:08 – Kimberly King

Yeah, that’s, and thank you for spelling that out, but it is true. I mean, what can we do to be seen and it’s, you know, maybe put those boundaries in place, but also, you know, really making sure that there’s a report that they can actually see that you’ve been working and what you’ve been accomplishing. This is such interesting information and a really good conversation point because, again, these are things that maybe people don’t even think about. So we have to take a quick break, more in just a moment, stay with us and don’t go away. And now back to our interview with the founder of RemoteWorkAdvocate.com, Ms. Nadia Harris, and we’re talking about proximity bias. This is such an interesting conversation. And, nadia, how do we overcome proximity bias?

0:15:55 – Nadia Harris

That’s a very good question and that’s actually, I think, the most important aspect here in this conversation. So how to make it work? Clear deliverables that you can measure. Okay, so always think about the quality, always think about time frame. Who’s responsible, and how do the responsibilities of one visual affect the responsibilities or deliverables of another individual, meaning one team member fails to deliver something, the other team member also can’t succeed. Consequently, the whole project is at risk. Right, it shouldn’t really be important to anyone who is a manager whether someone is actually out for coffee at 9:57 or out for lunch at 1:13.

Okay, the challenge that everybody had within the past few years with too many virtual meetings and I think everyone’s been there- that is also something that touches on proximity bias and also syndromes such as Zoom fatigue. Zoom fatigue, meaning I’m sitting on Zoom calls for so many hours so that others can see that I’m there- We can’t possibly expect from individuals to respond immediately. I had a situation, I think a couple of years ago with a potential client of mine. That company never turned out to be a client of mine, we just didn’t define remote work properly. I mean, they didn’t and we just couldn’t, we just couldn’t figure it out together. So they said to me that they’re super flexible towards their team members in terms of where they’re working from.

But there is one rule: when the manager is calling at first ring, the employee needs to answer. I’m like oh! Well, good luck. I mean, if somebody I don’t know went to the kitchen, or I, whatever you know, or has a bigger apartment and they can’t run from one room to the other, I’m like, well, this is ridiculous. So I think what’s also very important is to establish core hours. So for example, we ask individuals to be available, for example, from 11 till one o’clock, right, if there’s anything needed ad hoc, okay, that’s fine, and then we can literally expect that if someone’s not in a meeting, they are supposed to respond. That’s how they will be able to schedule, for example, deport before or after that time.

But again, that has to be part of the working together agreement, rather than being obsessed with, you know, micromanaging and monitoring. Is someone really there? Or, for example, scheduling or sending random invites to Zoom meetings or team meetings. In five minutes, can you jump on this call? Yes, I’ve been working on a report with numbers for the past three hours and I’m literally dreaming to drop everything and start all over again, just to have a ridiculous meeting [laughter].

0:18:55 – Kimberly King

You know, and it’s so important to talk about those boundaries, though I can’t even imagine.

Yes, you have to answer this call on the very first ring and then, literally, I mean, there’s just so many things in there, but I guess if you’re not talking about it and putting those things in place there, yeah, I’m sure that’s a book in and of itself. Right of all the things that can go wrong, right. So can proximity bias be dangerous and what can happen if it’s not addressed?

0:19:22 – Nadia Harris

Well, this is also a very good question. Usually, those who cause proximity bias have no idea what they’re doing. And let me give you another example here. So, because I’ve worked with so many hybrid companies meaning, hybrid in the sense that it wasn’t a 2-3-3-2 model, that people would come into the office three days a week, work from home two days a week- no, it was the situation that, um, there were some roles that were always in the office, or in the 3223 model that I’ve just shared, and some were forever remote, living in a different city, okay. And so here, those that were always in the office, of course, they made friends and everything, and so once in a while, there was, for example, a company event organized and so these remote people, they felt so excluded whenever they had to go to that event. 

So that was a very sad thing to see. Do they feel that they belong, do they feel that they’re part of the team? And they did exactly that. So it was a company of 200 something people and the score was very high and I said amazing, how many people are remote? And it’s like, oh, 30 people are fully remote, the rest, the rest is mostly on site. I’m like, okay, so how do you know what exactly caused that high score? Have you distinguished the group of remote workers from those working on-site? No, we haven’t. I’m like, okay, so your survey is nonsense because you have a relatively high score I think it was 7 out of 10 or something but the 30% of these people being remote, this can actually cause the big discrepancy. You have a very big problem in terms of proximity bias, right? 

And so, in other words, this causes discrimination, for example, because, look at those who want to work remotely, a company will say, no, you cannot work remotely, I have to see you in an office. And so here’s the question: If somebody is, for example, disabled, doesn’t the person deserve the job because they can’t commute, just because someone has a huge problem with proximity bias, being completely unaware of it?

Look at single parents. Look at parents who are not even single parents. Look at mothers, right. Look at people who, for example, work super hard, but, um, well, there’s just office politics in place that leads to the fact that we immediately know who’s going to be promoted, who’s going to get a raise and who will be completely forgotten. And it’s easy to see because I work with, as I mentioned, global companies and some local laws, like national laws, are starting to have anti-discrimination clauses in their legal acts today, saying that remote workers can be discriminated, which is very interesting.

0:22:14 – Kimberly King

Wow, it is true, there’s so many things. I love your examples and your stories and just from experience, it really kind of puts things in perspective. What are the examples of proximity bias? You’ve given some of them, but are there any that stick out right now?

0:22:33 – Nadia Harris

Yeah, absolutely. So, for example, I hang out with people in the office when I’m a manager, so I tend to address everything to these people first, completely forgetting that I have remote employees, right? So, to an extent that I feel close to me, I am going to share more information, more context, only with these individuals, and the rest will feel completely left out, right?

Also, the examples of proximity bias are directly linked to well-being among remote employees, right, because they literally feel disconnected and very often because they feel disconnected, they feel that they have to earn their position in a company. And that leads to the fact that many of them will work longer hours with no boundaries, trying to respond whenever they get a message, whenever they get an email, whenever they’re approached during different times of the day, and sometimes even night, to be able to say like, hey, you cannot see me, but I am here because I’m responding so quickly. So, in such companies, it’s that remote employees will work even harder than those that are on site, because they feel like they have to keep up and express that we are here, please take a look at us. And then, in the long run, this is, of course, toxic and that also leads to burnout, and I’ve seen that many times.

0:24:07 – Kimberly King

Wow, this is just again such- a very important conversation. It’s going to be interesting to learn more. Congratulations on your books and thank you for sharing your knowledge. If you want more information, you can visit National University’s website. It is nu.edu and Nadia. Thank you so very much for your time today. 

0:24:30 – Nadia Harris

Thank you. It’s been a great pleasure. Totally appreciate today’s conversation.

0:24:36 – Kimberly King

You’ve been listening to the National University Podcast. For updates on future or past guests, visit us at nu.edu. You can also follow us on social media. Thanks for listening.